Sunday, November 02, 2008

WE NEED MORAL CLARITY



I write this post with deep sobriety, repentance and the fear of the Lord. After spending 12 hours praying for the protection and sanctity of marriage with thousands of believers in Qualcomm stadium today in San Diego, I came to clearly understand not only in my mind, but in my spirit the dire situation we are in.

America is at a critically defining moment, forced to face the most important moral and civic issue of it's history. The question is, "How will we define marriage?" Is it between one man and woman as the Bible states and God commands? Or will it be defined by human definition and be deemed acceptable as normal?

My heart is saddened, because although God's Word is clear, most Christians I know are not clear about this moral issue at all. There are two sides to the coin here and I want to be objective.

On Nov 4th citizens of California will vote either YES on Prop 8 or NO on Prop 8. By voting yes we are voting and stating that marriage is a union between one man and one woman. By voting no on prop 8 we are voting & legitimizing that marriage can be defined in other ways, specifically man and man, or woman and woman (or homosexual marriage). If Prop 8 is rejected, homosexual marriage will be taught as mandatory curriculum to children as young as kindergarten. Teachers will have to teach that marriage is not only man & woman, but between same sex partners.

I've heard both sides of the coin from Christians...

1. View #1 ~ Jesus loves all people and we are to accept everyone as they are. Everyone has a right to choose and we should not infringe upon their choice because that is a personal decision. We as Christians should not judge others, for this would be arrogance and discrimination and not a good witness to those who do not believe.

2. View #2 ~ God's Word is clear that homosexual orientation is wrong (Romans 1, 1 Tim 4) and we are to not to tolerate this behavior. If we legalize same sex marriage it will destroy the moral fabric of our society which is the human family unit which is the base that holds all things together . Ultimately we would be directly disobeying God's commands.

3. View #3 ~ My personal view...I believe as Christians we are to love all sinners (which is everyone of us) but we can not condone or support the practice of sin. Therefore, we are to accept all people (whatever race, sexual orientation, economic class, etc) as God would by not condemning, but showing love in action. At the same time, we are not to agree with what God disagrees with. Sin is sin. No questions asked. We must stand for truth as written plainly in God's Word.

As a Christian believer we must vote Yes on Prop 8 and let me give some Biblical reasons why....

  • Marriage is defined in the Bible as husband & wife. Marriage for thousands of years has always been between a man and woman, we are not to change it's definition because humans decide to, it is God's decision and He has made clear what His decision and purpose is. (Genesis 1:27, 2:18, 2:24, Matt 19:3-12, 1 Cor 7:1-40, 1 Peter 3:1-7, etc)
  • Marriage is for pro-creation, Same sex unions can not produce natural life. Marriage was created for the purpose of family. Father, mother and children are given as gifts from God for families to experience love and relationships in God's grace. (Ps 127:3, Prov 17:6)
  • Prop 8 is not only a political issue, it is a moral issue. We as Christians must give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what belongs to God (Matt 22:21) In other words, we are to fulfill our civic duty as citizens by doing what is right and voting in order to legislate what is in the best interest of society according to God's Word. At the same time, as God's church we are to correct, rebuke, encourage and teach (2 Tim 4:2) believers God's ways & commands without tolerance or compromise.
  • Voting NO on prop 8 is disagreeing with God's definition of marriage. If we vote NO against Prop 8, we are agreeing that the definition of marriage in the Bible is not legit. The activists advancing the agenda to vote NO on Prop 8 main goal is not human equality, but to legitimize same sex unions to be defined as "traditional marriage" As a Christian and one who believes in God's infallible Word, we can not disagree with what God says marriage is. If we do, then we will be guilty of supporting and condoning the practice of this sin. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is not God's will or purpose for human kind, and we are not to support this practice of sin under any circumstances. For it says in Romans 1: 18-32 (Study specifically the last verse Rom 1:32)
  • God's Wrath Against Mankind
    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

  • Voting No on Prop 8 would be supporting a false doctrine. Again, God's Word is clear in 1 Timothy 4:1-3a...1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry (in the last days false teachers will be influenced by demons and teach demonic doctrines forbidding people to marry. Many homosexual activists are now saying that if they can't have the right to marry, no one should have the right to marry)
  • In 2 Tim 4:2-4 it says, "2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
  • As Christians we are called to disciple nations, not only individual people. Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus commanded us to make disciples of "all nations." The Greek word is panta te ethne which means "every social unit or grouping that makes up a particular society." Our purpose and aim is to "disciple nations" under the Lordship and teachings of Jesus Christ. In other words, we are to pray and to act as God's ambassadors on in the world by bringing the kingdom of heaven into the kingdoms of earth. How do we do this? We pray, "Our Father, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Matt 6)." God's goal is to make the kingdoms of men, the kingdoms of our God. This happens when a entire society is obeying the teachings of Christ. For example: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao and others discipled their nations, but not in the ways of God, but in the ways of Nazism and Communism. It was not an individual agenda, it was a national and civic agenda. God has an agenda too, make disciples of ALL NATIONS!
  • As disciples of Jesus Christ we are called to reform society, not just preach salvation to individuals. Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." It did not say, "gospel of salvation" which is what most Western Christians think. We believe Christianity is a private and personal faith. It is simply a spiritual matter, not a physical/material or can I say political one? Plato taught dualism which is a division between sacred and secular. Everything spiritual is looked upon as good, whereas everything material is looked upon as waste and secondary. Therefore, western Christianity took this philosophy and believed that only the spiritual was important and everything material/physical was insignificant, evil and rotting away. This gave way to modern thinking that church only happens on Sunday, our purpose as believers is to keep ourselves holy & wait for the rapture to come, because the world is evil and getting worse by the day. What's wrong with this thinking? Did God not create us body, soul and spirit? What happened throughout the last hundred years or so is Christians in the West have forfeited their civic right and responsibility to stand and fight for God's truth in society. We abdicated our authority to rule, and gave the world and all it's power to the Devil. We have let Anti-Christian agendas seep into our government, business and education systems (ex: Supreme Court justices interpreting law according to their personal beliefs, rather than the law itself, unethical business practices from Enron to Wall Street, Darwinism/Evolution theory taught in schools as mandatory & Creationism not being able to be taught at all, abortion made legal and causing 44 million babies aborted since 1973, and now the redefinition of traditional & Biblical marriage? The list goes on) Christians have a responsibility and that is to lead in all areas of society: Government, Business, Education, Media, Arts, Family and Religion by living, acting and teaching others to obey God's commands. Our goal is not just to get saved, go to heaven and live our own personal lives. What we do and how we live has implications not only upon us, but our surroundings and the communities we live in. (Christianity is not just a personal faith, it is a body of believers who unite together as One under the headship of Christ. God does not only judge individuals but He judges nations, cities, kings and authorities ~ ex: Sodom & Gomorah, city of Nineveh, nation of Israel, nation of Babylon, book of Judges, 1 & 2 Kings, all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament when God's people turned away from His laws, they experienced judgment and the curses that came with disobedience, but when they returned to the Lord, repented and obeyed His written commands they were restored and blessed (ex: King Josiah 2 Kings 22). How much more are we to do the same as believers today?
  • If we disobey God's Commands we will receive a curse upon our land. Deuteronomy 6 states clearly that if we obey God's commands we will be blessed, if we disobey them we will be cursed. This is not punishment from God, it is the natural working out of His created order. God gave us commands to obey, so that we would live life the way it was intended to work. When we break His law, we receive the natural and spiritual implications from breaking them. Laws are there to keep life in order. When disobeyed lives and society will ultimately go into anarchy and chaos. If same sex marriage is legalized, so will everything else. We will no longer have a moral code to rule and govern society. Legalizing same sex marriage will open up Pandora's box and like other nations that have legalized same sex marriage (Canada, parts of Europe, etc) other sins will be permitted as legal and normal. In Canada, EU and even the US (in Boston MA) pastors and parents have been arrested and put in jail for standing against same sex marriage, being indicted for hate crime and discrimination. Lord have mercy.
We also need to understand the real implications of Prop 8 (www.protectmarriage.com)
  • What is Proposition 8?
    Proposition 8 is a simple and straightforward voter initiative. It contains the same 14 words that were previously approved in 2000 by over 61% of California voters: “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”
    Because four activist judges in San Francisco wrongly overturned the people’s vote, we need to pass this measure as a constitutional amendment to restore the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman.
  • What does a YES vote on Proposition 8 mean?
    Voting YES on Proposition 8 does 3 simple things:
    1. It restores the definition of marriage to what the vast majority of California voters already approved and human history has understood marriage to be.
    2. It overturns the outrageous decision of four activist Supreme Court judges who ignored the will of the people.
    3. It protects our children from being taught in public schools that “same-sex marriage” is the same as traditional marriage.
  • What does a NO vote on Proposition 8 mean?
    If Proposition 8 is defeated, the sanctity of marriage will be destroyed and its powerful influence on the betterment of society will be lost. The defeat of Prop. 8 would result in the very meaning of marriage being transformed into nothing more than a contractual relationship between adults. No longer will the interests of children and families even be a consideration. We will no longer celebrate marriage as a union of husband and wife, but rather a relationship between ‘Party A’ and ‘Party B.’ The marriage of a man and a woman has been at the heart of society since the beginning of time. It promotes the ideal opportunity for children to be raised by a mother and father in a family held together by the legal, communal and spiritual bonds of marriage. And while divorce and death too frequently disrupt the ideal, as a society we should put the best interests of children first, and that is traditional marriage. Voting No on Proposition 8 would destroy marriage as we know it and cause profound harm to society.
  • Will Proposition 8 take away any rights for gay and lesbian domestic partners?
    No. Proposition 8 is about preserving marriage; it’s not an attack on the gay lifestyle. Proposition 8 doesn’t take away any rights or benefits from gays or lesbians in domestic partnerships. Under California law, “domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections and benefits” as married spouses. (Family Code §297.5.) There are no exceptions. Proposition 8 will not change this.
  • If Proposition 8 passes, what will happen to the same-sex marriages that have already taken place?
    Under Proposition 8, the validity and recognition of all marriage in California would be limited to a man and a woman, including past and future marriages, as well as marriages from other states or countries. The rights and obligations of same-sex couples who obtained marriage licenses before Proposition 8 passes will be up to the Courts to decide.
  • If Proposition 8 does not pass, will my children be forced to learn about gay marriage at school?
    Yes. In health education classes, state law requires teachers to instruct children as young as kindergarteners about marriage. (Education Code §51890.) If the same-sex marriage ruling is not overturned, teachers will be required to teach young children that there is no difference between gay marriage and traditional marriage.
  • Read this shocking and frightening article on the implications of the legalization of same sex marriage had upon Boston, MA - The Real Implications of Legalizing Same Sex Marriage
In conclusion, I want to make it clear that I have nothing against people who live a homosexual lifestyle. I have many close friends who are homosexual or have same sex attraction. They are wonderful people, incredible friends and some of them are Christ followers. In fact, my favorite Christian author Henri Nouwen struggled with SSA (Same Sex Attraction) his whole life. He did not act out on his sexual orientation, but he did come out openly that he had SSA. Do I believe some of them are going to heaven & have a relationship with Jesus Christ, absolutely! Do I treat them differently than other friends, or even myself, I don't believe so. We are all human, we all have sinned and we all fall short of God's glory and each need his mercy. God accepts us for who we are and loves us as we are. When we recognize our sins, repent and turn to His loving kindness He always receives us with open arms. In the same way, we are to love others unconditionally as God does so with us. We are not to condemn others for their sin, for none of us are perfect. I love and respect my friends who are gay or lesbian, I believe they have the freedom to choose the lifestyle they live and what they believe.

Yet, I can not let marriage be defined as "same sex" because God's Word is clear what marriage is and what marriage isn't. It has been this way for thousands of years, as Pastor Rick Warren stated, "For 5,000 years, every culture and every religion - not just Christianity - has defined marriage as a contract between men and women," Warren wrote. "There is no reason to change the universal, historical definition of marriage to appease 2% of our population."

So although we love the sinner we can never condone the sin that is practiced. Sin is real and sin causes pain, destruction and degradation. Sin is not cool, it is foolish. Sin does not just hurt yourself, but it hurts other people. Indeed, all men are created equal, have certain rights to pursue life and happiness, but when the rubber meets the road and civil government goes against God's commands, there will be a showdown. I will not stand for what God calls unrighteous because of the negative implications for my future family, future generations & the life of my country. This is why I can not and will not support same sex marriage as a traditional definition of marriage.
  • I can't let my future children be taught that homosexual marriage is part of God's definition for marriage at the impressionable ages of kindergarten-12
  • I as a pastor will not marry a homosexual couple because I don't believe that is a definable marriage. If I am arrested for hate crime and discrimination, although this is not so my heart nor intention, there is nothing I can do but stand upon God's Word.
  • I can't teach others that same sex marriage is acceptable and normal, because the government mandates me/or others to do so. This clearly goes against what the Bible teaches us to teach and if I am to be arrested for stating my right and opinion to believe what I believe, than this is unfortunate, unfair and unjust.
  • Psalm 94:20 - "Can unjust leaders claim that God is on their side - leaders who permit injustice by their laws"
Lord, I cry out for your mercy and justice to roll down like a mighty river in California on Nov 4th. Holy Spirit come upon the hearts of those who vote to understand Your commands, Your ways and Your thoughts that are higher than ours. I pray you awaken Your church and it's leaders to recognize the moral crisis we are in and to stand up for truth, while at the same time let those who say they are Christian show deep love and compassion to those in the homosexual community, may they not feel judged nor condemned, may they feel and know Your unconditional love and acceptance, may they be blessed and filled with Your peace. May they encounter Your power and presence, be healed and saved in Your loving grace just as you saved me in my sin and shame. Lord we all bow before You, for You alone are King of kings, Lord of lords and the Prince of peace. Lord have mercy on California and our nation and protect the sanctity of marriage that You have created for all mankind to live in love for You and one another as godly families under the loving lordship of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Praying for mercy,
JMA

13 Comments:

At 11/02/2008 08:10:00 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

AMEN & AMEN!

1118

pleasing HIM only with decision/action and catch His heart-bit to work it out.

HE is ark (words), words became flesh together, enter to words in His interpretation. please! Is it possible?

A new generation~~~~~~ UP-Side-DOWN Now!
Yeshua is waiting for us at least 2000 years, but actually is 5000 years more! Get ready together to "action" by heart, is it possible?

Yes is Yes, No is No. Only ONE ADONAI alone on the earth. AMEN!

Halilu ADONAI!!!! PurifyPurifyPurify, restore original images, LORD, I beg you, in Your MightlyName MESSIAH YESHUA, AMEN!

1118

 
At 11/02/2008 08:11:00 AM , Anonymous sto said...

amen.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?

"You are the ligh of the world...let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matt 5:10-17)

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." (Matt 19:3-4)

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate you enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt 6:43-48)

"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5:18-20)

In fact, Yeshua has a much higher standard on marriage for us. His standard on marriage is "no separation of one flesh of a male and female join" not only no room for same sex join, but also no room for divorce. "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matt 19:8)

We are called to be salt and light and stand up for the truth. On the other hand, we are called to be persecuted for righteousness and love our enemies. These are a high callng, a privilege. Are we ready for this tough calling as Yeshua's followers?

JMA is ready. Are you ready?

We should all get ready.

JMA, I'll be praying for you and your nation. Peace.

 
At 11/02/2008 08:51:00 AM , Anonymous Some1 said...

oh my goodness....this jus cant happen....I mean...i'm going to study in CA..and they can't do this....its not right, it's just so wrong. i understand what u meant jaeson coz i dont hate them either i jus dont agree with them although i dont hav a bunch of close frds who r gays/lesbians but i do noe some of them. Those kids are not to be induce with all the wrong teachings. I should pray hard about this for the future of america and the future of those would be kindergarten kids.

I might as well fast n pray...Lets cry out to God together

 
At 11/02/2008 08:58:00 AM , Anonymous Some1 said...

My frd passed away a few days ago in a car accident things hvent been going too well for me. but i'm still gona pray n fast for this matter i just need prayers of support from any1 who reads this...i need ur prayers my frd passed away only last week and i dono how long i could stand againts all this but i noe God's there for me...they cant do this to CA

thank you

 
At 11/02/2008 10:56:00 AM , Anonymous m@ said...

Interesting how thousands of Christians can gather to pray for the passage of Proposition 8 but foolhardily voted in a president -- twice -- that spends billions of dollars a day on a war that has killed thousands of Iraqi civilians.

You might want to do your research on MassResistance too, Jaeson; they're not quite the best source to cite in defense of your arguments since some reuptable organizations have labeled them as a hate group.

 
At 11/02/2008 11:24:00 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

He loves the world (systems & people & lost) but reject the way of oppositie.

Dont'we remember that, 40days trial of Yeshua, the enemies also understand words of GOD.

But Yeshua reaction, we forget?

Loves everyone in tuning their pure intention by HIS guard and Guide personal relationship in between everyone and God Father.

sin is sin. "inner is pure on truth, external is flexible " as for an representative of servant's leaders! AMEN!

 
At 11/02/2008 02:20:00 PM , Blogger Jaeson Ma said...

It's interesting that you keep posting with an angst towards republicans or what you might deem as conservative Christians.

Whether it be George Bush or social issues, I respect your opinion. I simply ask you to state your thoughts without a spirit of accusation, arrogance, or defense.

If you do debate, please debate based upon a Biblical worldview and God's written Word.

So far, the comments received are not encouraging, exhorting or even corrective but accusatory and sarcastic. Once, again if you come in the same spirit you have been commenting with I will have to not post your comments.

Thanks for being a good sport :)

Thank you for the reference on mass resistance, but I do not stand with what they believe as an organization, I simply used this article for the clear facts that were stated and documented by other sites also on the same accounts with the Parker Family and what Gov Mitt Romney allowed in the state of MA (www.protectmarriage.com, www.frcaction.org, http://www.protectmarriageca.com/)

Regards,
JMA

 
At 11/02/2008 03:22:00 PM , Blogger m@ said...

I apologize, Jaeson, if you viewed my comments as accusatory; wasn't my intention. And I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm engaging in a sustained battle against Republicans or conservative Christianity.

No, my battle is more against a proper use of our time and resources and ensuring that nobody -- NOBODY -- makes decisions based on a single, hot-button issue (including same-sex marriage). It only cheapens the proper exercise of democracy, which we are certainly blessed to have.

I've been having a lengthy discussion with several people on Proposition 8 from a Christian perspective, and I unfortunately find the arguments supporting it to be relatively piecemeal. What you're presenting here is no less piecemeal, mainly because you offer no new evidence explaining your support for it -- other than some Scripture that, in some cases, is dubious in its application (ex. "Marriage is for pro-creation" -- so 70 year-olds shouldn't be allowed to marry? hmmm....)

At present, California offers nearly all benefits of marriage to civil union partners (joint filing for federal taxes notwithstanding due to DOMA). So why is all the stink being raised about Prop 8 -- is it because 'marriage' is the word in discussion here? Honestly, Proposition 8 is no more than a scapegoat issue used by either side to claim bigotry (or the end of morality) is alive and well.

Furthermore, this "slippery slope" discussion is baseless. Will America become a Sodom? Some people claim so, and they point to the Scandinavian region as an example. But wait -- doesn't Norway have the highest per capita rate of foreign aid to developing countries, thereby providing necessary funding for vaccines against malaria, ARVs for HIV/AIDS, etc.? What about, for example, in Germany, where pregnant mothers are offered not only several months of maternity leave, but are guaranteed a job of equal salary upon their return to the workforce? Isn't the upbringing of a child a method in which the sanctity of live is firmly preserved?

That, Jaeson, is where I get peeved: thousands of people, likely including sub-18 kids (that can't even vote) drive to San Diego to endorse a California proposition that will change nothing but the impression that Christians gained a "moral victory". Why aren't they out registering voters, having roundtables with their non-Christian friends, or simply surfing the web to really discover what each issue means to you, me, and the millions of people that disagree with your worldview? Is that...Biblical? If it's not, then I guess I've been all wrong about this Jesus thing...

 
At 11/03/2008 01:15:00 AM , Blogger Jaeson Ma said...

Hey,

In response to your comment, I'd rather take this discussion off line rather than publicly online.

Again, I still don't know who you are nor your background. So send an email to info@campuschurch.net and I'd be glad to hear your views.

Thank you for your apology, I appreciate your ability in trying to have a decent conversation. Problem is, in your remarks there is still sarcasm and disrespect in the way you comment. It's not that I don't want to talk to you, but if someone does not respect me, I don't feel the need to respond and put forth energy into a conversation.

A few responses...

1. Marriage is for pro-creation. Children are a natural offspring of a husband and wife, how does that not make sense? For two 70 year olds to be married and not have children...the logic you are presenting here does not make its point. Pro-creation is not the only purpose in marriage, but it is definitely one of them.

2. I believe in democracy. At the same time we need to understand that although we live in a democratic nation, we are ambassadors of Christ who represent the kingdom of heaven which is not a democracy, but a kingdom with a King and His name is Jesus. When a democracy decrees laws that are against God's kingdom laws and commands, it is then that I can not agree and submit to its rule. I will obey the authorities and submit to its government in whatever nation I live in. But, when that human government commands me to disobey God's clear commands I must pledge my allegiance to Jesus Christ first and foremost.

3. The point of my post is exactly what you wrote "California law does give almost all benefits to civil unions with same sex partners" that is the reason why I must vote Yes on Prop 8. Because, the homosexual agenda is not a fight for "equal rights" they already have their rights, it is a fight for "legitimacy" and the redefinition of marriage.

I can not legitimize something the Bible does not legitimize and redefine something the Bible has already clearly defined simple and clear.

4. I believe we do have to make decisions on "hot button issues" even if it be just one. Of course, I understand where you are coming from that we need to take into account every other issue and be objective and knowledgeable in how we vote and legislate. At the same time, when an issue is clearly stated and goes against God's commands and written will, I can not stand and support an issue that is Biblically wrong, unrighteous or unjust. Not every issue has to be taken into focus or account at one time, each issue is important and needs to be addressed. It happened that The Call California was focused on praying on the specific issue of the protection of marriage in our society. Other issues, I and many other believers daily pray for and seek God's answer and justice in (war, abortion, environment, economy, poverty, etc)

5. Lastly, The Call California is a gathering that is focused on prayer, not politicking. We believe that our battle is not against a government, activists or other humans, our battle is first and foremost against spiritual principalities and wickedness in the air (Eph 6:10-18). We are to pray and fast in order to call upon and invoke God's mercy to bring about change in the spiritual that ultimately influence the physical realm. This is why thousands of young people came to pray to God to protect the sanctity of marriage, because they believe in the power of prayer that can change the world in times of crisis. (Joel 2:1-30)

This will be my last response publicly to you. I respect your thoughts and opinions although I don't necessarily agree with them much at all. I look at things not from a humanistic stand point first, but first spiritual than practical. If you want to continue this discussion feel free to email me....Regards, JMA

jaeson@campuschurch.net

 
At 11/03/2008 06:32:00 AM , Blogger Shiron said...

Dear All, Dear JMA, Dear m@,

Even we gather all the infomation and have the best analysis based on our own research, we all have to admit that nobody can guarantee that the one we vote turns out to be who we really expect.

It's just like choosing a spouse in a marriage, even we date for a long time, get to know each other for a long time and gather enough information to know this person thoroughly. We think that we know this person very well, and we think this is the one and make our choice and marry this particular one, we think that this is the best. It turns that it's not the one we expect, we regret, now it's our fault to make such choice that we regret, we cannot blame anyone. The best way to get away from it is to get a divorce (logically not bibilically), remember it's our fault to make such a decision that leads to such a result.

Yeah, right, this is how we feel now, we regret that we voted for Bush/Republican, they disappointed us, we regret, so, similar to divorcing a spouse, we simply divorce Republican, think that choosing Obama/Democrat will be better. Of course la, everyone will think like this, otherwise, nobody will think of a divorce in the first place. But who can guarantee our second choice will be better than our first choice based on the logic we think.

Now we say that getting married is very personal, don't bother me, not even my parents. So let's now choose our own 'spouse' (vote your choice - you choose yours, I choose mine) based on our own logic and personal conviction (Don't be influenced by anyone, you have your own discernment and judgment). Or simply don't choose (no vote, waste your vote), let God choose for us? These people have to pray more, double your prayers please.

And, of course, we all have to bear our own responsibility of our own choice (either vote or no vote), which either leads us to hope or despair. But when things happen, please just don't blame others, don't blame anyone. It's our own choice, our own fault.

Don't blame JMA. Don't blame m@. Don't blame God either.

Don't think that your vote will change the world either. This is not the end of the world either MaCain or Obama. Or Messiah comes to America either MaCain or Obama. (the same: a bad marriage or a divorce is not the end of the world either, God have enough grace for us. But we are not to abuse His grace, and Yeshua's standard is still the same: no divorce.)

The end of the world will come when Yeshua the true Messiah comes. No matter what, we believe that He is still in control. We will be at ease if we have done our part, to put enough prayers in this elections, and continue to put enough prayers for the future President, the political party in charge, and our society, and our family. (Don't think that we can hold our future except God.)

God bless America and have 'fun' in choosing your 'spouse'.

I'll be praying for you two, JMA and m@, but is this really necessary, you both know that you are not going to change your position, right?

Peace. Relax.

(Disclaimer: the above is merely personal opinion. Not intent for a debate. Please ignore me if you disagree with me. Thanks JMA if you publicize it.)

 
At 11/03/2008 06:43:00 AM , Blogger Some1 said...

Different people different preference :/ i just hope that people would stop posting comments than sounds like verbal attacks...welll its cool if u delete this jae xD i'm just 2 bored if u think might get some1 mad just delete it its nth important xD

 
At 11/04/2008 02:02:00 AM , Blogger katzy s said...

Bro, thank you for this much needed blog! You're such an encouragement, brotha! If I had only half the annointing of the Spirit and the passion for Jesus that you haveI would be set=P But seriously, keep doing what you're doing. A lot of people look up to you- including me. Press on, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your work in the Lord is not in vain!

 
At 11/04/2008 10:29:00 PM , Blogger Song of Style said...

I'm so glad that President Obama is our new president.
Hopefully, he'll open everybodies' eyes.
No more hatred, no more discrimination, and such.

I'm sure God is happy.

 

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